Student-Centered Design Starts With Simplicity

Student-Centered Design Starts With Simplicity

by | Aug 12, 2026 | Innovation, Outcomes and Accountability

Student-Centered Design Starts With Simplicity

Student success isn’t just about providing more resources—it’s about making the path to a degree easier to navigate.

David Schejbal, President of Excelsior University, believes today’s students, especially working adults, value clarity as much as flexibility. They want to know exactly what it will take to graduate, how long it will take, and what it will cost.

At Excelsior, that means creating clear academic pathways, simplifying credit transfer, strengthening advising and success coaching, and helping students navigate financial aid with confidence.

Looking ahead, Schejbal believes partnerships between institutions can further reduce barriers by making credit transfer seamless and giving students greater flexibility without sacrificing time, money, or progress toward a credential.

For today’s learners, student-centered design means reducing complexity so students can focus on completing their education—not navigating the system.

Transcript

Cameron M (00:47.726)
Welcome back to the President’s Forum Podcast. Today we’re talking about student centricity, what it looks like to design programs, policies, and supports around the realities of today’s learners, and what actually moves the needle on persistence, completion, and time to credential. President David Scable is back with us to share what Excelsior University is seeing and what’s working. David, thanks for joining us.

David (01:20.546)
Thanks, Cameron. Good to be with you.

Cameron M (01:22.786)
So when you think about student centricity right now, what’s changed most about who’s who today’s learners are and what institutions have to get right to meet them where they are?

David (01:33.484)
Well, about twenty years ago we started talking a lot more about adult students. So I wouldn’t say that today’s different in that regard. I think what’s different about students in general, whether they’re adult students or more traditional age students, is that they’re very much focused on the value of their education. And many students interpret value by what type of job they’re gonna be able to get after they they graduate.

In my opinion, they tend to be too narrow in their definition of value of higher ed because you get a lot more out of higher ed than just a good job. But today’s many students, that’s what they’re focused on.

Cameron M (02:15.873)
Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think that we can find the value much more than just our earnings, but also that’s yeah, that’s what students are often focused on. So I think that’s a good point. if you had to pick one or two student success initiatives that have had the biggest impact on persistence and completion at Excelsior, what are they and why do you think they work?

David (02:38.571)
Well, especially when it comes to adult students, what adult students don’t want is to be confused. And what often confuses students is too many choices. So where in a typical curriculum students have

general education requirements, they have core requirements, et cetera, et cetera, and then they have to choose courses towards their major. What helps adult students is to have a very clear path of courses that they have to take. Because whenever I talk to a student, the first question that the student asks is, what do I have to do to graduate? And the next question is, and how much is it going to cost and how long is it going to take?

And so giving them a clear answer for what do they have to do is really important. So many students, especially adult students, transfer credits in because they’ve gone to other schools. So helping them understand how many credits are going to transfer.

How many classes they have to take, in what order they have to take those classes, and don’t confuse them with a bunch of choices. Help them make very clear decisions and put together a clear plan. So I think that’s step one. Step two is just really good support structures for the students. So academic advising is important, but for many adult students, so is success coaching.

Cameron M (04:08.075)
Mm-hmm.

David (04:08.887)
helping them understand how to be better at managing their time, how to be better at managing their finances, how to juggle work and family and school and all of the responsibilities that they have. A lot of people just need a little support. So I think that’s the other really important piece.

Cameron M (04:27.137)
Yeah, yeah, definitely. That d that advising and the coaching is so important and and trying to be maybe proactive instead of reactive. So how do you design those advising and coaching practices so that it can be proactive and it can help these adult learners that are juggling so much?

David (04:48.331)
Well, we certainly do a lot of research. there’s plenty of research that’s been done out there about student success and student motivation, student persistence. So it’s important to be familiar with the literature. But nothing beats talking to students, asking them what do you need? how are you doing? are there things that are preventing you from persisting? Are there things that we as the institution

Can do to help you succeed. So it’s being real with students and having really genuine conversations.

Cameron M (05:25.675)
Yeah. Yeah, I think that’s the best way to go. That’s really important. sometimes some of some decisions we make that have a really big impact seem small on paper. Can you give us an example of a policy or program design choice that might have seemed small on paper but makes a real difference in reducing time to credential?

David (05:49.262)
Credit transfer is always top of the list, making sure that credits will transfer. Sometimes an institution will say, well, you know, English 101 will transfer, but English 102 will not.

Whereas at many schools, English 101 and 102 might be the same class. So being really thoughtful about facilitating credit transfer, making it easy for students to understand how trans that credits transfer, and then expediting that credit review at the institution so students understand what they will still need to do, how many credits they need to take right from the beginning when they’re interested in their in the program. The other thing that’s really

Important is being as clear and simple about financial aid as possible. Many students are mystified by financial aid, it’s a scary process, and they need a little help in understanding how to fill out a FAFSA and how to apply for aid, what pockets of aid might be available to them, because in addition to federal aid, many states have state aid. So really helping students navigate that world of financial aid.

Cameron M (07:05.579)
Yeah, financial aid is such an important one. And also the credit transfer. I remember back in the day trying to transfer myself and and that was always that was a scary time trying to figure out what I could what I could bring with me. So that’s a very, very important thing. now let’s look ahead. What’s one support you think more institutions should be building or rebuilding to better serve today’s students over the next couple of years?

David (07:34.667)
Well, I’ll tell you what we’re focused on at Excelsior. So what we’re focused on is creating partnerships with other institutions that help students function within a network of schools so that much of the bureaucracy is taken out of the mix for the student. So for example, we were just talking about credit transfer. If you imagine a what I call a constellation of institutions that a

Cameron M (07:37.249)
Yeah.

David (08:04.591)
Agree to make transfer seamless for students, for example. So a student can take a class at this institution, a class at that institution, and graduate from the third institution without loss of credit, without loss of time, and without loss of money. That’s really important. So I think those kinds of partnerships are going to become more and more prevalent as we go down the line because it’s an important part of.

Of being more competitive and schools have a lot of competition right now. It was not something that schools needed to worry about 15-20 years ago. And so you saw really poor credit transfer processes. So I think that’s one area that’s likely to change a lot over the next, say, five years.

Cameron M (08:53.803)
Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And this this constellation is also so helpful for the students and access in time to completion. So I think that’s that’s really an important work that that we could see implemented more throughout the country and and in in the higher ed. David, I think that wraps up our conversation today. Thank you for joining us. For our listeners, you can see more from us at

PresidentsForum dot org and on our social medias. David, thanks for joining.

David (09:28.653)
It was a pleasure, thank you.

Cameron M (09:30.126)
Thanks.

Why Partnerships Are Becoming Essential to Higher Education’s Future

Why Partnerships Are Becoming Essential to Higher Education’s Future

by | Aug 7, 2026 | Outcomes and Accountability

Why Partnerships Are Becoming Essential to Higher Education’s Future

Partnerships are no longer just a strategy for growth—they’re becoming a strategy for student success.

David Schejbal, President of Excelsior University, believes higher education is entering a period where collaboration between institutions, employers, and other organizations will become increasingly important. The goal isn’t simply expanding institutional reach. It’s creating a more seamless experience for students.

Reducing friction for students

Excelsior is developing what Schejbal calls a “constellation” model—a network of collaborating institutions and employers designed around student success rather than institutional boundaries.

The vision is simple: students should be able to transfer more easily, receive credit for workplace learning and internships, and move between educational opportunities without losing time, money, or academic progress.

Employers are part of the solution

The model also creates stronger partnerships with employers.

Rather than viewing education and employment as separate systems, employers become active participants by helping shape learning opportunities, supporting workforce development, and creating clearer pathways from education to careers.

The bottom line

As higher education evolves, partnerships can help institutions expand opportunity, reduce barriers, and better serve students throughout their educational and career journeys.

Transcript

Wesley Smith (00:00.494)
David, thanks so much for making time to join the podcast this morning.

David (00:07.832)
Anytime, thanks for inviting me.

Wesley Smith (00:10.166)
hey, we’re talking about partnerships this month, the month of August in the president’s forum. And I know that this is an issue that is near and dear to your heart. So let’s let’s talk first a really big picture question. As as a president, what kind of of emphasis do you place on partnerships as a strategy?

David (00:35.839)
well we think that partnerships are are the solution to prosperous future. and I and that’s not hy high hyperbole. I I really mean that. I’ve been paying attention to what’s been happening in healthcare for the past 30, 40 years. And there’s no question that healthcare has gone through a tremendous consolidation phase. And I think that higher education is at the beginning of a similar phase. And so

These partnerships in higher ed are really either key to survival for some smaller schools or they’re key to to growth and scaling for more established institutions. And and in the case of state schools, especially state schools that are parts of larger state systems, from a financial perspective, the smaller campuses simply cannot remain on their own. So I think partnerships can

Consolidations, MA, different kinds of of affiliations among institutions is going to be the key to the future in higher education.

Wesley Smith (01:44.653)
Yeah, there’s no question in my mind that that the landscape is going to be massively impacted by partnerships moving forward. And then, you know, just strategic initiatives for institution by institution will be impacted by that. So you’ve talked a lot about, you know, the big picture on on partnerships in higher education. Tell us a little bit about what you’re you what you’re thinking is with regard to institutional partnerships, especially with employers.

and other stakeholders that are really important to, you know, the outcomes of education for Excelsior.

David (02:20.718)
Sure. So I think one of the big

Challenges that large higher education systems have had in the past is that from the student perspective, there’s no benefit. A student by going to a school in a system doesn’t get to transfer more easily. There’s no guarantee that the credits will transfer if the student does, et cetera, et cetera. And so what we’re trying to do is form a different series of partnerships. You can call it a system-like model.

Although it’s definitely not going to be like a traditional system. But the big difference in what we’re trying to create is.

A frictionless ecosystem from the perspective of the student. So what I always say is that at Excelsior, we only have one mission, and that is our student success. Most institutions have many missions. They are focused on research, they’re focused on faculty, they’re focused on community engagement. We think those things are important, but those things for us are secondary compared to student success. And so then the question is from the perspective

Of a student, especially adult students, what do they need? Well, what they need is ease of transfer, they need good PLA, and they need to be assured that if they move among institutions, that they’re not going to lose credit, time, or money. And so what we’re trying to do is build work, we call it a constellation, a network of

David (03:59.545)
Collaborating institutions, in some cases parts of MAs, in other cases affiliations or just partnerships, where the institutions agree on that seamlessness from the perspective of students. And we are also inviting employers to be parts of those of that ecosystem. So from an employer perspective, if an employer is part of the ecosystem,

We work out, for example, how internships count toward credit so that students automatically get the credit towards their degree. We also provide the ecosystem as a one-stop shop for the employer. Single place to pay for education if the employers want to use the the education benefits, a place to go shopping for talent, a place to engage in talking about what.

Is needed from the employer’s perspective, and how that dovetails with curricula that are within that ecosystem, and so on. So it really is intended as a lifelong home for students and a place to take the friction out of the higher education employer process so that students can move more seamlessly among institutions within the system and among employers that are taking advantage of.

the system.

Wesley Smith (05:28.59)
So how has this been received by specifically employers? I mean, this is a a really nice thing for the students. Are employers willing to say, hey, yeah, this this is a better model of of partnership?

David (05:41.785)
They are. as a matter of fact, we started we we used to be part of guilt and we have we have ended that partnership. And and and

The the challenge with guild, what I think from an employer perspective is that yeah, it’s a single place, it’s a single payer option, but but it doesn’t give you any access to the curriculum, to the academics. And because guild doesn’t have any control over the academics. In the in the constellation, of course, when employers join, they get the benefits of the single payer model.

But they also get the benefits of a comprehensive curriculum across different disciplines, across levels in disciplines, micro-credentials to doctoral degrees and everything in between. And so we already have a couple of

healthcare, large healthcare partnerships that are very engaged in this. And more employers are showing interest because it solves their problems in two ways. they don’t have to worry about reimbursing their employees for benefits one employee at a time, and they get this entire ecosystem to shop in and for their employees to to learn in.

Wesley Smith (07:09.518)
Right, right. That makes a ton of sense to me. if if other presidents and other institutions are out there thinking about this and and trying to figure out, well, how can how could we replicate this or what are the key principles, you know, to starting something like this? What what would your advice be?

David (07:28.622)
Well, it’s not an easy thing to start. I’d say rather than trying to recreate more versions of the same thing, it would be much smarter to try to partner in this and grow the the system because

The more opportunities we give to students, the more they’re gonna benefit. And the more opportunities we keep the the ecosystem as a singular system rather than trying to create four or five, which just fragments the fragments the the the system and creates the same problem that I’ve been talking about. so so it’ll be better for the students. So

I’d say let’s have those conversations together and see if we can figure out how to plug various institutions into one ecosystem.

Wesley Smith (08:17.548)
Yeah, yeah. Okay. Now let me let me zoom back out, David, because I know that of all of our presidents, you you really have your your finger on the pulse of mergers, acquisitions, you know, the the the macro side of higher education. How would you say the constellation mindset impacts kind of the macro side?

David (08:41.274)
say more what you mean.

Wesley Smith (08:44.286)
Well okay, so let me let me re-ass this question. I’m I’ll I’m just we’ll cut this part out, Des. I’m I’m just gonna re-ass this. Okay. So David, y you are one of the presidents who has their you know, you you’re monitoring and you’re watching macro work in in higher education, especially with regards to mergers, acquisitions, what’s happening to institutions across the board. you have

a really collaborative style where you know you’re looking with your partners, you’re working on on collaborating internally, you’re working to benefit students. Can you just revisit the macro side for a second? How does how do partnerships benefit students currently in the system when presidents are more willing to to look at partnerships as a solution?

David (09:34.511)
Sure, great question. So what I think that there are three attitudinal differences among university presidents. one group believes it’s completely bulletproof, well-endowed institution, very selective, etc. They have no interest in partnerships, they want to continue their exclusivity. Okay, so they’re not gonna play. another group is

Convinced that if you ignore it, it’ll go away. So it’s a group of of denial precedents, what I what what I’ll call them, and that the problem really doesn’t exist. And if you if you don’t believe it exists, then it doesn’t. And then I think that there’s the final group that’s realistic about the changes that are happening. And then they have to make a decision about where they fit.

we’ve had schools approach us and say, We want to become part of Excelsior. And and my question to them is, do you want to be affiliated and essentially remain independent? And in in the two cases that we’re finishing up right now, both said no, we want to become integrated into Excelsior. We have another partner right now.

That wants to remain independent and share curricula and really focus on growing adult adult market share. And then we have another potential partner that is an entire campus, and and they’re interested in really making sure that the campus survives and having us take over all of the online pieces. So if the partnerships vary a lot. From the student perspective, I think what is important about the partnerships is that it creates a bigger

Easier to navigate universe for the student. So as opposed to a student having to choose, I want to go to an online school or I want to go to a brick and mortar school or I want to do you know whatever, the student has the entire universe. So maybe wants to start online and then do some intensive in-person experiences, or vice versa, start at a campus.

David (11:56.184)
then gets a job, maybe gets a job in a different part of the country, wants to work in it and also study online, but still wants to attend some in-person intensive experiences.

The the constellation model that we’re built developing allows students to do all of that. And so we now have opportunities for students to study in Florida, in the Chicago, Milwaukee area, and in California, in addition to Albany, New York, which is where we’re headquartered, and of course a broad array of online opportunities, not to mention opportunities for nursing students that include clinicals in 17 states across the country.

Wesley Smith (12:39.308)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, David, we we really appreciate you joining us today and we appreciate your, you know, strong expertise in the collaboration area and and and the experience that you’ve shared with us. Thanks for thanks for sharing that, Witt.

David (12:55.054)
Thank you.

Wesley Smith (12:56.642)
All right. Hey, d David, let me let me give me one second. I you were breaking up you were breaking up in that last one. Let me let me do the outro one more time. Okay. Or just the conclusion. Yeah. well David, thank you so much for joining us today. We appreciate your time and and the experience that you shared with our listeners, and we’re looking forward to having you back again soon.

David (12:59.31)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

David (13:20.613)
Thanks Wes, always a pleasure.

Partnerships That Expand Opportunity

Partnerships That Expand Opportunity

by | Aug 6, 2026 | Innovation, Video

Partnerships That Expand Opportunity

As the Presidents Forum moves through August, one theme continues to emerge across our work: partnerships.

Through our Innovation Listening Sessions with college and university presidents, we’re gathering ideas and insights to help shape our November meeting in Dallas. One message has been consistent: meaningful innovation rarely happens in isolation.

This month, we’ll highlight examples of institutions working alongside employers, community organizations, technology partners, and public leaders to expand access, strengthen workforce pathways, and improve student outcomes.

We’re also continuing to monitor key policy developments, including the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) and congressional efforts to address the Pell Grant funding shortfall. We’ll keep members informed as these issues evolve.

At the Presidents Forum, partnerships remain central to advancing accountable innovation and creating more opportunities for today’s learners.

Transcript

As we move through August, the Presidents Forum is focused on a theme that continues to show up across all areas of our work: the power of partnerships.

We’ve been conducting Innovation Listening Sessions with presidents to prepare for our upcoming meeting in Dallas this November. These conversations are giving us valuable insight into the challenges, opportunities, and big ideas shaping the future of higher education.

One thing we’re hearing clearly is that meaningful innovation rarely happens in isolation. It happens through strong partnerships — between institutions, employers, community organizations, and state and federal leaders. This month we’ll see powerful examples of colleges and universities working together with partners to expand access, better serve learners, and respond to workforce needs in new and practical ways.

On the policy front, the NDAA, which includes provisions related to military tuition assistance, is still being considered. And it remains to be seen how Congress will address the Pell shortfall, which continues to be a significant issue for students and institutions alike.

As always, we’ll continue monitoring these developments and sharing updates as they unfold.

Thanks for watching, and stay tuned for more throughout the month.

The Perceived Quality Gap Is Closing: What Employers Really Think About Online Degrees

The Perceived Quality Gap Is Closing: What Employers Really Think About Online Degrees

by | Jul 23, 2026 | Working Learners

The Perceived Quality Gap Is Closing: What Employers Really Think About Online Degrees

For years, online education has had to overcome a perception challenge. Many assumed that if students had the option, they would always choose a traditional campus experience, and employers often viewed online credentials as somehow less rigorous or less valuable.

But higher education has changed dramatically. Today’s learners are increasingly working adults, parents, military-affiliated students, and career changers who need education that fits their lives, not the other way around. In fact, the traditional-age, residential student is no longer the majority of learners in higher education, and nearly one in three college students now take their courses exclusively online.

As online learning has become a mainstream pathway to education, employer perceptions appear to be evolving alongside that reality.

A new study from Ithaka S+R suggests that while some bias toward online credentials remains, employers are placing far greater emphasis on demonstrated skills, relevant work experience, and job readiness than on whether a degree was earned online or in person.

For institutions serving nontraditional students, that’s an encouraging and important shift.

Transcript

Wesley Smith (00:00.694)
Welcome to Just One Question with the Presidents Forum. I’m Wesley Smith, and today I’m joined by the Presidents Forum’s policy fellow, Amy Glyn. We’re going to explore just one question. Amy, there’s new research on employer perceptions of online credentials. What does it tell us about the future of higher education and the students that we serve?

Amy Glynn (00:26.933)
Yeah, Wes, thanks for having me again. You know, I think the biggest takeaway is that employers are becoming much more focused on outcomes and capabilities than educational modality. Right. And this is a really tremendous win for those of us who are familiar with the high quality and rigorous standards of more.

Of our online programs. So the research that you’re talking about, it was a study completed by Ithaca SR, where they surveyed more than 540 hiring managers and recruiters nationwide, and that they found that the difference in employer preference for entirely

in-person degrees versus online was really shrinking and has gotten quite small. An in-person degree increased the likelihood of a candidate selection by only two and a half percentage points over an otherwise identical online degree. And so by comparison, factors like relevant work experience and demonstrated skills are beginning to play a much larger role in the hiring decision that we’re that.

You know, that’s what they’re telling us. and it’s really significant because it suggests that the perceived quality gap between traditional and online education has narrowed. The study also found that.

Institutional selectivity mattered less than many of us in higher education might have assumed. Moving from a less selective institution to a more selective one changed the hiring preferences by only about five to six percentage points. So employers are, yeah, right? I thought it was interesting. I I know I just had a bias really revealed.

Wesley Smith (01:56.163)
Interesting. Yeah. I

Right. Yeah. I th I thought that the gap would be much larger than that.

Amy Glynn (02:06.719)
Yeah, and it’s because employers are increasingly asking, can this person do the job? Rather than simply where did they go to school? And for the students we serve, that’s incredibly important. For millions of working adults, parents, rural students, students with disabilities, military learners, online education isn’t a second choice. It’s the model that makes higher education possible. and our students are

Are often already employed. And so they’re leading teams, they’re serving in the military, they’re raising families, applying what they’re learning in real time. And they don’t just graduate with a credential, they’re graduating with experiences, resiliency, practical skills that employers are increasingly valuing. So, in many ways, our students are embodying exactly what this research suggests. Employers are asking candidates.

Who can demonstrate competency and contribute immediately in the workplace?

Wesley Smith (03:05.314)
This is this seems to be really good news for presidents forum institutions. What should their takeaway be from it?

Amy Glynn (03:12.021)
I think the takeaway really is the work we are doing right now is being recognized. and and the the programs we have to to be able to identify and for our students to be able to demonstrate the skills that they have gained or advanced within their education is going to really be an important part of the student presenting the portfolio to advance their career.

Right, so it’s no longer just the transcript, but how do we demonstrate the skills that a student has acquired to future employers? Or how do we help the students build that portfolio of demonstratable skills and present that information to employers either in the in the hiring or the promotion process?

Wesley Smith (03:59.416)
Right. Right. Well, Amy, we appreciate you taking time to review this with us. Of course, we’ll add this in in the show notes and we’ll encourage our not only the president’s forum institutions and leaders to look at it, but I mean gr encouraging information for all students to review before they decide on programs of study and what their options look like. Thanks, Amy.

Amy Glynn (04:21.93)
Absolutely. Thanks.

AI Agents Are Becoming Every Student’s Digital Guide

AI Agents Are Becoming Every Student’s Digital Guide

by | Jul 22, 2026 | Innovation

AI Agents Are Becoming Every Student’s Digital Guide

Artificial intelligence is changing higher education, but the biggest opportunity isn’t replacing people—it’s helping institutions deliver more personalized support to every student.

In a conversation with the Presidents Forum, Outrival Founder and CEO Ruben Harris shared a vision for how AI agents can strengthen enrollment, student support, retention, and lifelong engagement by working alongside institutional staff rather than replacing them.

What’s novel today will soon be normal

Harris argues that every major technological shift initially feels disruptive before becoming commonplace. Just as email and computers transformed higher education, AI agents are poised to become a standard part of how institutions serve students.

The question for higher education isn’t whether AI will become part of the student experience—it’s how institutions will use it to improve outcomes.

Every student could have a personal AI guide

One of Harris’s most compelling ideas is that every student will eventually have an AI agent that stays with them throughout their relationship with an institution.

Rather than replacing advisors or financial aid professionals, the AI agent becomes a trusted first point of contact—answering questions, providing reminders, and connecting students to the right person at the right time. That relationship could continue well beyond graduation, helping alumni reconnect for career support, upskilling, and lifelong learning.

AI should improve the student experience—and the employee experience

For large institutions serving tens or hundreds of thousands of learners, personalized outreach has always been difficult.

AI agents can handle routine, high-volume interactions, allowing staff to focus on conversations that require empathy, judgment, and expertise. The result is a better experience for students while reducing repetitive work that often contributes to employee burnout and turnover.

Start with measurable outcomes

Harris encourages institutional leaders to approach AI through focused pilots with clearly defined goals.

Rather than implementing AI broadly, institutions should identify a specific challenge—such as enrollment outreach or student support—measure results over 30 to 90 days, and expand successful solutions. The emphasis should remain on measurable outcomes that improve service to students while creating operational efficiencies.

The bottom line

AI agents are not the future of higher education because they automate tasks.

They represent the future because they can help institutions deliver more personalized support at scale, allowing every student to receive timely guidance while enabling staff to focus on the human interactions that matter most.

Transcript

Wesley Smith (00:00.608)

Ruben, thanks for joining us today.

Ruben Harris (00:03.874)
Thank you for having me.

Wesley Smith (00:05.44)
Hey, for our presence forum audience, can you tell us a little bit about your background? It’s an interesting background, and then also introduce out rival to us.

Ruben Harris (00:14.03)
So I’ll with Outrival. So Outrival creates AI agents that we call digital workers for high volume organizations to create personalized interactions with their customers. So when you think about higher education, those use cases tend to be in enrollment management, bill pay debt collection, inbound student support, and then retention. And so we are currently doing over 3 million calls a month. And the way that we got into this.

Wesley Smith (00:40.712)
wow.

Ruben Harris (00:42.274)
This world is before this, we ran an organization called Career Karma. Career Karma built its own enrollment management team of about 300 people with me and my co-founder, Timormeister. we had about two million people a month coming to us trying to get enrolled into vocational schools. So we learned everything about not just enrollment management funnels and retention, but all of the things that you need to do to serve a student when it comes to psychology.

follow-up nudges, motivations, wraparound support and things like that. before that I worked at three different startups in education, healthcare and politics. The first one wasn’t education. It was called alt school focus on pre-cise education for K th grade students. The second one was called Honor, which was a marketplace for caregivers and their families in hospitals. And then the third one was actually in politics with with Hustle, which is another reason why I’m excited about President’s Forum at Hustle. We actually

worked on bi-directional communication for text message for through text message for political campaigns. so I really learned a lot about not just communication for politics, but how to raise money for big political parties. And before that I was an investment banker for three years. And then before that I’ve been playing the cello since I was four years old. I’ve done Carnegie Hall twice and that’s a little bit about my background.

Wesley Smith (02:04.779)
We got a little bit of everything. I like I didn’t know the cello. That that’s that’s really interesting. Twice at Carnegie Hall. That’s cool.

Ruben Harris (02:08.63)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Twice at Carnegie Hall, I was a my Montessori school kid. So I learned about music through Montessori School. and my teacher, Bonnie Bull, that I started with, top violin and cello. And so yeah, I work with her, President Wolfgang Laufer, and and many other great cellists in the world.

Wesley Smith (02:25.093)
wow.

Wesley Smith (02:31.797)
So I mean, w maybe some music at an upcoming presence forum meeting. We’ll bring the cello out. that sounds good. Well, hey, you’ve made a really interesting observation. You y you made the observation that what sounds strange today is just early. Tell tell me what you mean by that, and and I reserve the right to to follow that up with with another kind of leading question. Go ahead.

Ruben Harris (02:36.403)
Yeah. I think we should do that, yeah.

Ruben Harris (02:58.538)
Yeah. I mean a lot of things that look novel in the beginning is just normal. That’s actually I I took that language actually directly from President Miller Mill Iron, where we did an interview last week and he was just talking about like what’s novel is normal. He actually gave an example of of email being introduced into the school and how a lot of people were very in against actual computers and email in the classroom, very similar to the introduction of AI, but then

Now obviously AI and computers are very normal in classrooms. I’m a student of history. I read a lot of books, a lot of biographies, and I know that we’re going through a lot of changes with AI faster than we’ve ever seen. And that quote was just a reminder that this is the same thing that you guys have seen before. And I I showed that picture of people in a boardroom where we gotta not we gotta change and and stop hoping that our

our strategy of of hoping that a the internet’s gonna go away is gonna be is gonna work. You gotta kinda like sit there and and accept that the internet is here, AI is here, AI agents are here. So what are we gonna do with them to empower our employees better and also to empower our students better? And if we’re gonna help our future leaders of the world, they’re going to need to be using AI agents in the workplace. And so

Not everybody in the workplace is using AI agents yet, but from my perspective there will be more AI agents than humans on the planet and more AI agents in the workforce than humans on the planet and we have to figure out how to work together with them.

Wesley Smith (04:36.361)
Yeah, yeah, really interesting. Okay. So so my question is, so str it’s it’s the new normal, right? Like to see see things that are looking very novel, very strange. What what in higher education do you think looks kind of interesting now that in, you know, two years will be like super mainstream?

Ruben Harris (04:43.361)
Uh-huh, huh.

Uh-huh.

Ruben Harris (04:58.776)
So part of the reason why I’m very excited about the present form is you all are the you all serve the the largest number of students. And it’s it’s not a lot of people when they think about schools that have large numbers of students, they usually think for profits, but present form is obviously a lot of nonprofits. You have schools like Mommy Day that we work with and and many other schools like that. What what I think is is interesting about that is whenever I talk to a small school, I actually

Tell them they actually don’t need to work without Rival because they have enough humans to personally serve all of their students when they reach out to them or when they’re reaching out to the student, right? If you’re doing with the if you’re dealing with a large organization, even if you have ten thousand employees and you have a hundred thousand students or in some cases two hundred or three hundred thousand students, it’s impossible for a human to reach out to that many people, especially when you have to touch them at least.

five plus times because these are working adults. these aren’t just people that are going there for four years that there’s an online component. So these people are are are I’m gonna use another quote that that Mark Melion uses. He calls them anders. These are people that are parents and online students. These are people that are actually doing things and so they need some kind of personalized interaction. So what I think is going to be normalized is every student is going to be able to have

some type of a digital worker or an AI agent that not only guides them from inquiry or prospect into enrollment, but also stays with them throughout their entire school experience through graduation. But that digital worker is a collaboration partner or a co-intelligence with your human staff and they’ll always be able to route the student to the right human at the right time in your organization. And when they graduate from the school,

Wesley Smith (06:50.005)
Right.

Ruben Harris (06:55.756)
that student can still reach out to their AI agent that was with them from the beginning. And that AI agent can connect them with the right human at the right time at the school because humans sometimes leave organizations. Right. And so that’s gonna be normalized for sure.

Wesley Smith (07:12.543)
Yeah, that’s interesting. I I mean that’s the first time I’ve heard that articulated. I I I’ve heard a lot about AI agents and you know, we’re we’re gonna be using you know, to decrease friction in the enrollment process or others. But I like that concept of having your own personal, almost like liaison to the institution that can that can then route you to whether it’s, you know,

Ruben Harris (07:14.658)
Yeah. Yeah.

Wesley Smith (07:39.445)
financial aid help or or admissions help or academic help or alumni support or or whatever. That’s that’s a cool vision.

Ruben Harris (07:48.111)
Think I think on top of it too, if you think about the the increasing focus on what is the purpose of education, people are thinking about cost. Some people will say, it’s just to make a better student, a better person, community, find your wife, whatever, right? Some people will say going to school and paying all that money is to get a job that pays you more than what you had to pay in tuition, right? And so from an outcomes perspective, I think it’s currently very difficult to know.

where all of your alumni goes from a employment perspective in the future. But if they have a relationship with their digital worker or their AI agent, you can probably get more accurate and up-to-date employment information in the future from that digital worker. And if you think about the whole circle of life, after you get a skill and you get into a job, you at some point are probably going to need more education. So that digital worker can also route you to the right.

person or the right course that you might need in the future as well.

Wesley Smith (08:49.757)
Especially today. I mean, with with the the landscape in the work world changing so quickly, you’ll have to reskill, you’ll have to upskill, you’ll have to I mean, you just have to be resilient. You have to be able to, you know, change when things change. And things are changing so much faster. The cycle of change is coming so much faster that that makes a lot of sense that this this, you know, liaison could also help you upskill, reskill, you know, to whatever whatever the workforce dictates.

Ruben Harris (08:58.403)
Mm-hmm.

Ruben Harris (09:17.858)
Yeah. My my favorite book that ties to your liaison analogy is called Cointelligence by Ethan Mollock. He’s a professor at Wharton. It’s a very short book, but it just gives you the framework and the mindset for how to think about these digital workers. It’s almost like your staff got promoted. I mean several of the people in the president’s forum already have lots of humans. Sometimes a third or two thirds of their whole staff is dedicated to the phones. But if you think about

What are they doing on the phones? A lot of it is waiting for people to pick up the phone, right? So here’s another thing to think about that’s going to be normalized. Right now in the higher ed, there are certain schools that are best in class at speed to lead, right? They have the best humans that are can reach out immediately when somebody fills out a form. I actually think that that capability is going to be normalized and every school is going to be able to do that with AI agents and digital work.

So what’s gonna make you different? It’s gonna be that speed to meaningful conversation where the digital worker might be able to reach out to the to the lead immediately and then route it to the right human in a certain kind of way. Right. So everybody’s served in a different way. You got everybody’s providing education, very similar to a restaurant, right? If you you everybody has food, but what makes everything different is the service. And what that’s also gonna do is gonna increase the quality of life.

for the employee. Call centers in general at schools have high churn rates. We all know this, right? Because they’re smiling and dialing. And sometimes if you’re dealing with Bill Pay, people are hanging up the phone on you, right? But if I can only talk to people that want to talk to me and the digital worker can talk to the people that aren’t ready to talk to me, how do we think about lead scoring and high intent and low intent and medium intent?

Wesley Smith (10:52.831)
Right. Yeah.

Wesley Smith (10:59.209)
Yeah, yeah.

Ruben Harris (11:13.602)
The digital workers can help you identify who’s ready and who’s not. And then the humans can really love their job and actually retain better. You don’t have to deal with turnover and retraining so much.

Wesley Smith (11:22.847)
Yeah, that makes sense to me. That makes sense. So you know, we’re talking about a really exciting future and you’re working with a lot of higher ed institutions. And I’m curious for your insight on what what kind of distinguishes, in your opinion, some some leaders who are cutting edge and that are, you know, qu early adopters and seeing good results versus those who who aren’t so much. Is there anything within, you know, leadership that you see that you could say, I

Ruben Harris (11:32.044)
Yeah.

Wesley Smith (11:52.649)
I think I I think that I think that that person is doing something right.

Ruben Harris (11:57.635)
I really love that question. Cause at first I was thinking you were asking me what am I doing different? But I like that you’re asking what are leaders doing different. Okay. Number one, if a school knows their numbers code, that’s great. You’d be surprised how many schools do not know their numbers. Number two, do you have an outbound call motion, whether that’s in house or through a third party call center through

a BPO or some offshore capability. That’s number two. Number three, what are your strategic priorities that you’re trying to move right now? So the issue with a lot of AI agents in production is that it’s usually focused on time saving, productivity, making people more efficient. Those things are great. The problem with it is as a leader, you spend a lot of time

Wesley Smith (12:28.416)
Mm-hmm.

Ruben Harris (12:56.162)
Setting up a pilot, investing a lot of money. And then it takes you a long time to know whether it worked or not. What’s really cool about a use case, let’s just use enrollment as an example, or even bill pay debt collection as an example, is you can see whether that worked in a day or a week. Right? So, so and so very quick feedback. And so you want to have the dashboards.

Wesley Smith (13:17.417)
Yeah. It’s pr pretty quick feedback.

Ruben Harris (13:24.172)
And the metrics to be able to see not only how your metrics are moving, right? But you also want to be able to see all the other metrics, like what is the effect of your dial attempts? How how what what’s more effective from a time of day perspective? Are you doing A B tests with male or female voices? One of our schools that we work with, Penn Foster, they’re doing over 50 experiments to really see what serves the student in the best way.

So the long story short is we we suggest that you create a pilot. The best leaders create pilots, but we we time box it. So it’ll either be 30 or 90 days. So we call it an internship for digital worker. And and student and higher ed leaders are familiar with internships, right? What do you do with an intern? You give them a job, you give them a job description. Don’t create a one-size-fits-all agent. Give the agent a job description, focus on the metrics.

If the metrics moved, great. Bring on that digital worker as a full time member of your team and add it as a member of your of your staff. It could do the work of 10 people augmenting the work of 100. Awesome. If it doesn’t work, don’t hire the the digital worker full time, but make it very outcomes based. And ideally, and I know people don’t always like talking about money in higher ed, it’s something that should make you money. So the best leaders that I’ve seen, the pilot is structured in a way.

Wesley Smith (14:35.445)
Right.

Ruben Harris (14:52.77)
where it actually makes you more money than you paid and it’s short and it is set up in a use case where you can deploy it at scale where maybe in the pilot phase it might make you hundreds of thousands of dollars. And s in our case, we’ve seen some p pilots make millions of dollars in thirty to ninety days. I’m talking about four million plus. And then if you deploy it at scale, you could actually make tens and even eventually hundreds of millions of dollars that goes back into reinvesting

Wesley Smith (15:13.887)
Wow. Yeah.

Ruben Harris (15:22.7)
and serving students and empowering teachers.

Wesley Smith (15:24.917)
Yeah, I love I love that last portion that that it it it’s really about reinvesting the the capital into more useful in into more useful and probably human-centered activities, right? It goes back into personalized education and instruction. You can ha you can you can utilize your your personnel in more effective ways because you’re not utilizing you know, humans to do

wrote tasks or tasks that that that a computer can do for you.

Ruben Harris (15:58.151)
I’m going give another analogy for the AI agent that’s it’s kind of stealing a little thunder for the interview that I did with with Mark, but he said that higher ed has always used AI agents. And he gives an example of writing a book. he’s written a lot of books and articles. And as a grad student, he worked with an author, let’s call him Wesley, right? And the grad students put all the material together and then the book was published. And great. That was awesome. Guess what the grad students were?

Wesley Smith (16:27.659)
They were yeah. Yeah. Sure.

Ruben Harris (16:27.682)
They were the AI agents for Wesley, the author, right? So today now the grad students can have AI agents, the professors could have AI agents, and they could all work together. So use that analogy in your head, going back to like going being a student of history, it’s actually not novel. Like history, you know, and the future and the present, they all rhyme together. And then not there’s also the that’s nothing’s original. So what sounds strange is just early. You j and you just haven’t really picked up that it’s it’s familiar actually.

Wesley Smith (16:56.971)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, great conversation. I I wanna conclude with the last question, you know, you’re new member of the forum. We we’re we’re glad to have you. tell us a little bit about what you think we can accomplish together. What what can the forum and outrival do that will improve education?

Ruben Harris (17:16.738)
Well, thank you for for inviting us to be a member of the President of Forum. We are true believers that you move at the speed of your relationships. And you I’m not gonna say the cliche quote about going farther together, but you you know the importance of collaboration. but I I did say the quote pretty much. But the the reason why I’m excited about the president of forum is not just because of the collaboration and the action items that you take, but

that the group collectively is is speaking out to people to try to teach people to learn. You all are clearly focused on content like we are. Part of the reason why our Rival created the the new normal podcast is because a lot of people started asking us questions like what you’re asking me now. What are you seeing from other leaders and what are they doing? So we would do a lot of customer references, a lot of introductions, but a lot of those customers never really had the time. And so presence form is great because we’re creating content together.

We’re sharing stories. It’s not a a commercial sale. We’re not trying to do do vendor stuff. We’re trying to educate the community and serve people. and and then you all don’t don’t just do things virtually, you all do things in person as well. And so I am very excited to to collaborate in that regard and yeah, help other people follow the examples of the leaders here to hopefully

prepare the future of leaders of the world. And last thing that I’ll say, I take it very personally because I think that there’s a cost to not doing things. Right. Yes, our schools have been around for thousands of years and there’s over four thousand schools in in the co in in the w out here. And if they don’t do things, not only are students going to be at a disadvantage, I think that schools some schools will shut down. and I think that there’s a way to run schools sustainably, leverage technology and

Wesley Smith (18:52.394)
Right.

Ruben Harris (19:12.487)
I am going to do my best to make sure that nobody has to shut down.

Wesley Smith (19:17.225)
Hey, now you’re on now you’re on Presence Forum talking points where you’re talking about, hey, we need to use technology, leverage it, we need to decrease costs with it, make it more sustainable, make it a better return for all of our students, because at the end of the day, that’s what the Presidents Forum’s all about is is driving outcomes for students and with with the use of technology. We call it accountable innovation at the the presence forum. We you know.

Ruben Harris (19:20.918)
Mm.

Wesley Smith (19:41.917)
Innovation, you know, for innovation’s sake isn’t necessarily what we’re pursuing. We’re we want to see innovation that drives better student experience. It’s lower costs and better outcomes. So that’s what we’re working on together.

Ruben Harris (19:54.366)
That’s it. Let’s do it together. And thanks again for having me on the present forum and let me know how how else I can help.

Wesley Smith (20:02.186)
You got it. Thanks, Ruben. Thanks for joining.

Ruben Harris (20:04.313)
No.